Off Topic – Demonizing Edward Snowden: Which Side Are You On? : The New Yorker

Demonizing Edward Snowden: Which Side Are You On? : The New Yorker.

( The MSM sound like they are reading from a “trash Snowden” script written by the NSA.  Slimy sarcasm about unwarranted conclusions that they trumpet as fact.  This was the ONLY article I ran across that noticed this. – JW )

greenwald-gregory.jpgAs I write this, a bunch of reporters are flying from Moscow to Havana on an Aeroflot Airbus 330, but Edward Snowden isn’t sitting among them. His whereabouts are unknown. He might still be in the V.I.P. lounge at Sheremetyevo International Airport. He could have left on another plane. There are even suggestions that he has taken shelter in the Ecuadorian Embassy in Moscow.

What we do know is that, on this side of the Atlantic, efforts are being stepped up to demonize Snowden, and to delegitimize his claim to be a conscientious objector to the huge electronic-spying apparatus operated by the United States and the United Kingdom. “This is an individual who is not acting, in my opinion, with noble intent,” General Keith Alexander, the head of the National Security Agency, told ABC’s “This Week” on Sunday. “What Snowden has revealed has caused irreversible and significant damage to our country and to our allies.” Over on CBS’s “Face the Nation,” Senator Dianne Feinstein, head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said, “I don’t think this man is a whistle-blower… he could have stayed and faced the music. I don’t think running is a noble thought.”

An unnamed senior Administration official joined the Snowden-bashing chorus, telling reporters, “Mr. Snowden’s claim that he is focussed on supporting transparency, freedom of the press, and protection of individual rights and democracy is belied by the protectors he has potentially chosen: China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, and Ecuador. His failure to criticize these regimes suggests that his true motive throughout has been to injure the national security of the U.S., not to advance Internet freedom and free speech.”

It is easy to understand, though not to approve of, why Administration officials, who have been embarrassed by Snowden’s revelations, would seek to question his motives and exaggerate the damage he has done to national security. Feinstein, too, has been placed in a tricky spot. Tasked with overseeing the spooks and their spying operations, she appears to have done little more than nod.

More unnerving is the way in which various members of the media have failed to challenge the official line. Nobody should be surprised to see the New York Post running the headline: “ROGUES’ GALLERY: SNOWDEN JOINS LONG LIST OF NOTORIOUS, GUTLESS TRAITORS FLEEING TO RUSSIA.” But where are Snowden’s defenders? As of Monday, the editorial pages of the Times and the Washington Post, the two most influential papers in the country, hadn’t even addressed the Obama Administration’s decision to charge Snowden with two counts of violating the Espionage Act and one count of theft.

If convicted on all three counts, the former N.S.A. contract-systems administrator could face thirty years in jail. On the Sunday-morning talk shows I watched, there weren’t many voices saying that would be an excessive punishment for someone who has performed an invaluable public service. And the person who did aggressively defend Snowden’s actions, Glenn Greenwald, the Guardian blogger who was one of the reporters to break the story, found himself under attack. After suggesting that Greenwald had “aided and abetted” Snowden, David Gregory, the host of NBC’s “Meet the Press,” asked, “Why shouldn’t you, Mr. Greenwald, be charged with a crime?”

After being criticized on Twitter, Gregory said that he wasn’t taking a position on Snowden’s actions—he was merely asking a question. I’m all for journalists asking awkward questions, too. But why aren’t more of them being directed at Hayden and Feinstein and Obama, who are clearly intent on attacking the messenger?

To get a different perspective on Snowden and his disclosures, here’s a portion of an interview that ABC—the Australian Broadcasting Company, not the Disney subsidiary—did today with Thomas Drake, another former N.S.A. employee, who, in 2010, was charged with espionage for revealing details about an electronic-eavesdropping project called Trailblazer, a precursor to Operation Prism, one of the programs that Snowden documented. (The felony cases against Drake, as my colleague Jane Mayer has written, eventually collapsed, and he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor.)

INTERVIEWER: Not everybody thinks Edward Snowden did the right thing. I presume you do…DRAKE: I consider Edward Snowden as a whistle-blower. I know some have called him a hero, some have called him a traitor. I focus on what he disclosed. I don’t focus on him as a person. He had a belief that what he was exposed to—U.S. actions in secret—were violating human rights and privacy on a very, very large scale, far beyond anything that had been admitted to date by the government. In the public interest, he made that available.

INTERVIEWER: What do you say to the argument, advanced by those with the opposite viewpoint to you, especially in the U.S. Congress and the White House, that Edward Snowden is a traitor who made a narcissistic decision that he personally had a right to decide what public information should be in the public domain?

DRAKE: That’s a government meme, a government cover—that’s a government story. The government is desperate to not deal with the actual exposures, the content of the disclosures. Because they do reveal a vast, systemic, institutionalized, industrial-scale Leviathan surveillance state that has clearly gone far beyond the original mandate to deal with terrorism—far beyond.

As far as I’m concerned, that about covers it. I wish Snowden had followed Drake’s example and remained on U.S. soil to fight the charges against him. But I can’t condemn him for seeking refuge in a country that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the United States. If he’d stayed here, he would almost certainly be in custody, with every prospect of staying in a cell until 2043 or later. The Obama Administration doesn’t want him to come home and contribute to the national-security-versus-liberty debate that the President says is necessary. It wants to lock him up for a long time.

And for what? For telling would-be jihadis that we are monitoring their Gmail and Facebook accounts? For informing the Chinese that we eavesdrop on many of their important institutions, including their prestigious research universities? For confirming that the Brits eavesdrop on virtually anybody they feel like? Come on. Are there many people out there who didn’t already know these things?

Snowden took classified documents from his employer, which surely broke the law. But his real crime was confirming that the intelligence agencies, despite their strenuous public denials, have been accumulating vast amounts of personal data from the American public. The puzzle is why so many media commentators continue to toe the official line. About the best explanation I’ve seen came from Josh Marshall, the founder of T.P.M., who has been one of Snowden’s critics. In a post that followed the first wave of stories, Marshall wrote, “At the end of the day, for all its faults, the U.S. military is the armed force of a political community I identify with and a government I support. I’m not a bystander to it. I’m implicated in what it does and I feel I have a responsibility and a right to a say, albeit just a minuscule one, in what it does.”

I suspect that many Washington journalists, especially the types who go on Sunday talk shows, feel the way Marshall does, but perhaps don’t have his level of self-awareness. It’s not just a matter of defending the Obama Administration, although there’s probably a bit of that. It’s something deeper, which has to do with attitudes toward authority. Proud of their craft and good at what they do, successful journalists like to think of themselves as fiercely independent. But, at the same time, they are part of the media and political establishment that stands accused of ignoring, or failing to pick up on, an intelligence outrage that’s been going on for years. It’s not surprising that some of them share Marshall’s view of Snowden as “some young guy I’ve never heard of before who espouses a political philosophy I don’t agree with and is now seeking refuge abroad for breaking the law.”

Mea culpa. Having spent almost eighteen years at The New Yorker, I’m arguably just as much a part of the media establishment as David Gregory and his guests. In this case, though, I’m with Snowden—not only for the reasons that Drake enumerated but also because of an old-fashioned and maybe naïve inkling that journalists are meant to stick up for the underdog and irritate the powerful. On its side, the Obama Administration has the courts, the intelligence services, Congress, the diplomatic service, much of the media, and most of the American public. Snowden’s got Greenwald, a woman from Wikileaks, and a dodgy travel document from Ecuador. Which side are you on?

Explore posts in the same categories: Uncategorized

27 Comments on “Off Topic – Demonizing Edward Snowden: Which Side Are You On? : The New Yorker”

  1. Kishonist's avatar Kishonist Says:

    What about if the whole thing was manufactured by the CIA from the start ?
    http://osnetdaily.com/2013/06/how-to-identify-cia-limited-hangout-op/

  2. Mark's avatar Mark Says:

    The NSA scandal has damaged not just the current occupant of the WH, but the trust of the federal government in general.

    While this wasn’t the first we’d heard of government spying, it’s been revealed that the scope is far deeper and widespread than any of us thought.

    It’s not only a clear violation of our 4th amendment rights, but also a blow against free speech because most of us will be much more cautious about the things we say on the phone and internet.

  3. Louisiana Steve's avatar Louisiana Steve Says:

    So what exactly did Snowden reveal about the NSA? The NSA listens in on foreign communications…no surprise there. The NSA bugged Medvedev’s phone…no surprise there. The NSA is technologically capable of more data collection than ever imagined…no real surprise here, they’re building a huge facility for this very thing as we speak. The NSA regularly spies on U.S. citizens…not really surprising but really concerning.

    I’m sorry, but I just don’t see any earthshaking revelations coming from Showden yet (notice I said yet). Bottom line, the NSA was outed on it’s domestic spying and is now threatened by a political and constitutional backlash. It’s all about saving their political asses. Snowden is just a sacrificial goat, pure and simple.

  4. Luis's avatar Luis Says:

    The Edward Snowden affair exposed. for the first time, the America ( Obama ) relevance in the eyes of China and Russia. This is what Snowden case is all about : the lost of the respect as an international superpower.

    • Justice for Israel's avatar Justice for Israel Says:

      And how does Israel treat traitors,one more point i would be more worried if GCHQ and the NSA was not doing this

  5. Isaac's avatar Isaac Says:

    I don’t know if cry or laugh at this world, oh well…

    He is an hero as far as I’m concerned (because I’m libertarian leaning, so I tend to distrust government anyway, so I view favorably anything exposing government actions against its own people – without ANY guilty presumption).

    BTW, I’m ecuadorian native lol. Ecuador government has indeed a double standard, they act purely on the basis of anti-americanism. The can persecute and jail their own journalists but they cry foul in the case of Snowden, saying they will defend freedom of expression. Double standard!

    On the other hand, USA government just has been exposed in a double moral: They have just mounted the biggest, most hyper-technological espionage machine of history – to go after their own citizens without guilty presumption- and they have no shame to persecute Snowden on the basis of… espionage! Double standard!

    Now, the funny thing: HK standing up against His Majesty Obomber… it was the second funniest thing I have seen after Ecuador standing up against His Majesty Odrone. Now, I’m sure, Putin is just laughing in Moscow and I bet there is also a LMAO-syndrome in Beijing as well.

    Obama is the laughingstock of the entire planet..

  6. Norm's avatar Norm Says:

    It is time that the people, be in Americans or anyone else, led the way to precisely define privacy today’s world. This will probably be an issue that will have to be debated every generation.

    Now we knew years ago that the NSA was filtering computer data for word patterns in their effort to prevent terrorist attacks. My family and some of our friends and I surmised that in the past few years that the invasion of our privacy had advanced too far. In fact, my wife always points out to me that when she goes only to her conservative websites there is always a momentary blackout and then it comes back on. She thinks that her IP’s entrance to the site is being recorded.

    So like many others Snowden has not told us anything new, in fact, Brit Hume the editor of Fox Evening News says the same. The pathetic attempt to bring him to the bar of justice is laughable. If he is caught Obama and his out of touch advisors are going to find millions of Americans marching for his freedom. He is not a hero, he is a symbol of my desire not to be fenced in.

  7. Isaac's avatar Isaac Says:

    Also, I’m just outraged that Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft (OK, I was expecting mis behavior from MS always in one way or another), Yahoo, Skype, etc, are all just a bunch of menial, obsequious subservients. Way to go, private enterprises, if you were doing the same on your own, you would be already being prosecuted under the anti-thrust law.

  8. WHATSRIGHT's avatar WHATSRIGHT Says:

    Ok so the government is watching and spying on us and how many times has the government screwd us over huh so who is doing the wrong thing here Edward Snowden is getting revenge on the government for every thing they do to us he did what we wanted but couldn’t do we are people and we have rights like freedom of speech and Edward Snowden used that he wanted to tell the world something plus if some one leaked info about someone eles THEY DONT GO TO JAIL you know why because we have rights and there’s no law that I know of that says you can’t leak info

  9. Luis's avatar Luis Says:

    The Apples That Changed The World And Us

    First, it was the Apple in the Garden of Eden: The Man was told not to eat from it, but he eventually did it and the wrath of Almighty was upon the Man, who was expelled from the Garden. Even then the price of knowledge was high and the Man payed it for eating the forbidden fruit. After that came, of course, the Apple of Newton which, by falling on his head, has inspired him to discover the force of the gravity – the universal attraction – which is the base for today rockets, satellites and missiles. And, finally, the Apple of a contemporary great Man, who thought that we can do more with the help of a PC. That man was Steve Jobs and thanks to his Apple we have today the iPhones, the iMacs, the iPads and the MacBooks. We are better connected, we can do complicated things with simplicity and we all bow to the new forbidden fruit, which is the Internet. We cannot live anymore without it, but that came with a price. Once, we were expelled from the garden. What will happen this time?

  10. artaxes's avatar artaxes Says:

    I have been using the internet for more then 15 years and it was almost right from the start that I knew that we were spied on.
    I remember Echelon, the funny story of a swiss copmpany selling cipher/decipher devices with built in backdoors, British internet providers having to build in access for the intelligence services into their devices, the French trying to outlaw encryption programs and the advent of PGP, the collecting of data to and email adresses for personalized advertisement and spam.
    So I always knew that everything you do on the internet can be recorded or listened to and I acted accordingly. I was almost paranoid in avoiding giving any personal information away on the internet (My name, address, pictures, email etc.).
    I acted on the assumption (which was correct at that time) that because of the sheer scale of the traffic and the effort that it takes to spy on someone the intelligence services would not bother to spy on small fishes like me.
    What is new is the scale and the amount of data that is recorded.
    It has become possible to spy on everyone and record the connection data (and other data) of everyone.
    This is a whole different game.
    As for the idea that this data is being collected to prevent terrorism, give me a break
    I would consider this only a valid point if the goverments in the US and in Europe would act upon the informations they have.
    Hell, the FBI was warned about the Tsernaev brothers by the Russians and the Saudis and what did they do? Exactly nothing!
    Nidal Hassan gave enough warning signals before murdering his fellow soldiers in Fort Hood.
    The two scumbags who murdered the Britsh soldier where known to be muslim radicals.
    One of them was accused before a Kenyan court because he wanted to join a jihadi group. Yes, I’m not joking. British diplomats tried to convince the Kenyans that he should not be sentenced but be allowed back to Britain.
    What are they doing with all the wonderful information? Nothing.
    There are still muslim hate preachers allowed to stay in the UK.
    Mosques teaching jihad and not being monitored or being allowed to spew their hate. I could go on and on.
    The US and Europe suffer both from the same desease.
    Many if not most of the islamic radicals are known but instead of deporting them they have to be monitored at the tax payers expense.
    There is a simple solution for the islamic terrorism.
    Deport the radicals and if then the terrorism doesn’t stop start deporting more muslims and stop immigration of muslims.
    Instead of using common sense and instead of solving this problem at the core our freedom and liberty and privacy is reduced more and more.
    Using the threat of terrorism to justify our total surveillance has the neat side effect that it gives the goverment the means for total control of the population. It gives them the means to blackmail and destroy everyone they deem to be their enemy.
    The IRS-scandal has shown that the goverment cannot be entrusted with such powers.
    I’m on the side of Edward Snowden.
    The only mistake he made was that he went to Hong Kong and Russia.

  11. Steve Ward's avatar Steve Ward Says:

    Some very interesting condemnations, especially after I voiced security concerns regarding Cisco and Israel’s plans. In fact, I was all but accused of being a terrorist myself!

    Justice, I really didn’t see the point in pointing out that your reply/accusation is exactly the same justification as used by all totalitarian regimes.

    I would recommend to all, as a brief research topic, the facial recognition and behavioural analysis program known as Trapwire.

    You’ll have Feds stopping you to ask why you left your (GPS trackable) devices as home next! We truly are entering the era of the “thought police,” (I really ought to get around to reading 1984, Orwell must feel like he’s on a rotisserie.)

    There is a provision in last year’s NDAA that can be summed up as follows:

    Anyone suspected of having had contact with anyone who is suspected of having a terrorist connection can be detained indefinitely with no charges preferred and no representation. This includes journalists. I kid you not.

    Land of the free, my arse!

    • Justice for Israel's avatar Justice for Israel Says:

      My source was the horse anonymous dont tell lies that the problem with them if they say he waqs working for the russians and chinese i believe them there totally anti russia and china,its why i stail talk to them do i like them or agree with them no,I dont have any real problem with what snowdons done many people i know would have blown the lid,its the way he did it when you sell your country out to our true and real enemy it makes YOU A TRAITOR THERE WERE A MILLION WAYS HE COULD OF DONE IT THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SO DAMAGING

  12. Kishonist's avatar Kishonist Says:

    It is funny that nobody bothered to analyze the article I linked to.
    Several things should strike you : the timing first. Obama went to China to criticize the Chinese for spying on the U.S., and right after that, a CIA/NSA insider escapes to…CHINA, to reveal that the CIA/NSA spy on China. If you remember that the strategic priority of the U.S. oligarchy right now is to weaken China, notably through the use Muslim Jihadists against China once they have conquered the Middle East, you could think that Snowden was a trap for China. But the Chinese sent him to Russia, and Russia barely let him stay inside an airport. The Chinese and the Russians perfectly understood that Snowden, like Lee Harvey Oswald, was sent there on a mission. To worsen the relationships between the U.S. and China. China must replace the Muslim terrorists in the scared part of the American brain, like the Muslim terrorists replaced the communists after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Remember : the War on Terror was just declared officially over ! The secret services/military-industrial complex must now declare who is the new enemy to justify all the money spent and the fact that Americans are as spied upon as the Russians and the Chinese. Of course the Chinese hackers are a perfect justification of the power of the NSA.
    Everything that Snowden revealed was perfectly known since the existence of Echelon was revealed many years ago, and any movie goer is aware of that thanks to many movies made in Hollywood.
    Snowden was cheered by many media controlled by the Western oligarchy, helping them regain some credibility (who buys newspapers anymore ?).

    • Justice for Israel's avatar Justice for Israel Says:

      your off your nut the opposites true were all in real danger from russia and china and israel is the prime target for russia, with israel gone russia can control the middle east trough occupation and force

      • Steve Ward's avatar Steve Ward Says:

        ps did you get a chance to look into Trapwire?

      • Justice for Israel's avatar Justice for Israel Says:

        yea we have something much more advanced here it uses voice too the cameras have mics,and a hood and glasses cant defeat it ether as it it takes unique profile of your body,its all scarey stuff if our governments ever go totalitarian were all screwed,i would expect its just the tip of the iceberg,but with russia and china planning our downfall its probably a good thing for now me i dont go near any places with cameras,and change phones dongles regularly,as it feels like every side is after me

      • Steve Ward's avatar Steve Ward Says:

        My last comment was meant for Kishomist, this one is for you:

        “The innocent have nothing to fear from the police”

        is an example of acute myopia at best and “terminal gullibility” at worst. Seriously, does anybody still believe that BS?

        The indoctrination of the youth of America to the concept “My country right or wrong” is anathema to all right thinking people. It’s known as perpetuating ignorance, thereby creating a nation of docile morons to be sent as canon fodder.

        Let me guess, you think the good old USA won the Vietnam War. Nuff said.

        Here in the UK, we’re a bit behind, but catching up fast in the desire to develop a populace of ignorant misanthropes that will make it justifiable to impose martial law.

    • artaxes's avatar artaxes Says:

      Why should I bother?
      With all respect, the article you are referring to is the usual conspiracy crap.

      As for your own scenario, I won’t comment on it because I don’t see that you presented any proof or compelling reasons for the veracity of your own assumptions that are its basis.

      • Kishonist's avatar Kishonist Says:

        Of course I have no proof. Who has proofs of what goes on inside the inner circle of power besides those who rule it ? Do you believe you live in a transparent democracy, or that you are ruled by a rich, secretive oligarchy ? Do you believe the corporate media tell you the truth about the secret services ? Did you read Guy Debord’s “The Society of the Spectacle” ?
        I reason with logic and my knowledge of history, and the obvious fact that when someone from the CIA/NSA pretends to have left those secret organizations, it is historically proven that he might just as well still be a member of the CIA/NSA on a mission. Ever heard of double agents ? Don’t you know that the primary goal of secret services is the mass manipulation of the opinions of the masses ruled and exploited by the rich, secretive, pervert, cynical oligarchy ? Did you read Edward Bernays ?

      • artaxes's avatar artaxes Says:

        Kishonist,

        logically correct conclusions are not necessarily true.
        To be true, the premisses that lead to your conclusion must also be true.

        Example:
        1. Islam is a religion of peace
        2. Jihadis use violence and terror
        3. Therefore the jihadis are not true followers of islam.

        Conclusion 3 is logically correct but it is not true because premise 1 is false.

        Read your own scenario again. If you are honest with yourself you will see that it consist mostly of assumptions (premises) and pure speculation.
        Not only you don’t offer any proof but you also don’t give us any good reasons why these assumptions should be true.
        Trying to prove an assumption with another assumption does not help.

        “To worsen the relationships between the U.S. and China. China must replace the Muslim terrorists in the scared part of the American brain, like the Muslim terrorists replaced the communists after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Remember : the War on Terror was just declared officially over ! The secret services/military-industrial complex must now declare who is the new enemy to justify all the money spent and the fact that Americans are as spied upon as the Russians and the Chinese”.

        This is pure speculation on your part and there is also the implicit assumption that the US always chooses its enemies according to the need of some hidden powers behind the scenes.
        This is a patently false assumption because we all know that we can’t always choose our enemies. If someone declares war on you you have nothing to choose. The enemy made that choice for you.
        The fact that obavez declared the war on terror over is totally irrelevant.
        For the jihadis who declared war on us this war is far from over.
        Remember how George Bush declared ‘mission accomplished’.
        A war cannot be ended by just one side declaring it over.
        A war can only be ended in two ways.
        BOTH parties agree to end the war.
        One party destroys the other party or it destroys the capacity of the other party to continue the war.

        I don’t bother to tackle the rest of your assumptions which are obviously heavily influenced by your world view.

        You are free to believe what you want and you are free to say your opinion but don’t expect me to take it seriously.
        I won’t comment further on this crazy stuff.
        That’s all.

        Sincirely
        Artaxes

    • Steve Ward's avatar Steve Ward Says:

      I must apologise Kishomist, I only finished fully assimilating your link earlier today (although I plan to reread it as soon as I’ve finished researching the “Tilt,” with what seems to be yet another example of Kissinger’s war crimes). You have provided facts to underscore my understanding of the world.

      Thank-you.

      “The most depressing fact of life for a cynic is how often they are proven to be correct.”

      WARNING, MAY OFFEND

      Was Shoah allowed to happen to justify the displacement of the Palestinians and guilt the world into creating the sovereign State of Israel?

      I wouldn’t put it past them.

      The US doesn’t fight terrorism, it exports it, along with weapons for all sides.

      Minor point, I use the phrase “military, industrial media complex.” Obvious why.

      As well as the movies desensitizing the world to neo-fascist totalitarianism, Homeland series 2 operates under the premis that Israel unilaterally bombed the Iranian nuclear sites. If that isn’t preparation, I’m Netanyahu!

      I hope he’s sensible enough to realise that Israel will be forced to become a scapegoat again (Osirak) so “Team America” can come and save the day as anti-semitism reaches epic pandemics.

      There’s none so blind as those who won’t see.

      Shalom, as if.

      • Kishonist's avatar Kishonist Says:

        Trapwire reminds me of all those marketing companies accumulating databases full of data about clients from other companies…many of those marketing companies have been funded by the CIA…just like google initially received money from the CIA. Trapwire obviously goes further.
        When a tiny minority of the population gets unnaturally far richer than the vast majority of the population, that tiny minority becomes ever more paranoid. All that is happening is perfectly logical.
        Desensitizing happens earlier than with adult/violent movies : it started with convincing mothers to work instead of raising their babies, so that children end up being programmed by television and humanly starved, psychologically unbalanced, easily manipulated. Then the school curriculum was dumbed down and teachers were deprived of any authority, as was proven by John Taylor Gatto. And the science of propaganda, so well mastered by Edward Bernays, must have improved a lot with computers and databases.

      • Steve Ward's avatar Steve Ward Says:

        Absolutely correct Kishonist, the insidious, invidious theft of humanity is as iniquitous as it is ubiqitous.

        While my knowledge of history pales in comparison to your own, I have a brain that works and I strive for erudition.

        If you have the time, please get my e-mail address from Joseph and forward me some links. I only have internet on my android phone, 500MBs, so please, only text items.

        Logic, common sense and acumen are sorely lacking in society.

        Common sense, common courtesy, common decency, the common cold and all things proverbially “common” are on scant supply these days.

        What’s your take on my Shoah query?

      • Kishonist's avatar Kishonist Says:

        Here is what you may find interesting to read :
        http://johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm
        http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html
        http://www.nothingness.org/SI/debord.html

        It is obvious that the British oligarchy tried to divide and conquer Europe for centuries, succeeded in dividing France and Germany before WWI, then Germany and Russia, Hitler got foreign financial support, and that very little was done to save Jews from the Shoah. Further than that, I am not sure of anything. What links can you offer ?

    • Steve Ward's avatar Steve Ward Says:

      Joseph, if at all poss, please can you pass my e-mail address on to Kishonist privately.


Leave a reply to Norm Cancel reply